Curse

Rene Saliere · Feb 27, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

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So, take a general statement about PvE and tie it down to a specific PvE situation. Way to entirely miss the point!

Not really. Those situations are typical of any endgame PvE.

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What are you disputing? The obvious benefits of Rebirth in PvE as opposed to PvP? Or, that resurrecting fallen players is not solely, nor should be, the Monk's job in PvP? Your response makes no sense.

The latter. Except in PvE also. I would have thought that was obvious in context.

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Adam Sunstrom is probably in a lot better position to know than you are about how much Mending is used. He may have to editorialize as to the perceived reasons Mending is used, but that's what intelligent people do when they reason things out.

My evaluation of Mr Sunstrom's intelligence can only be dependant on his writings. So far, so bad. If he represents ANet collective wisdom on PvE or PvP... well, frankly... we're f**ked.

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You still entirely miss the point: Mending may have some uses in PvE but it's a generally bad thing to use in PvP.

Oh! Was that the point? Next you'll be telling me I shouldn't use Frenzy against Bladed Aatxes, or maybe, that I shouldn't sell my Black Dyes to the Merchant anymore.

Adam Sunstrom needs better PvE builds to make the transition to Post Searing.

Lonesamurai · Feb 27, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

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Originally Posted by Kakumei

Hahaha wow

Wiki builds are terrible

yeah, but they are a start

Kakumei · Feb 27, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

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Originally Posted by Rene Saliere

Adam Sunstrom needs better PvE builds to make the transition to Post Searing.

I'm not sure where he said he uses those skills in PvE.

I'm not sure where he advocated the use of those skills in PvE.

He didn't say "i use dis shit yo", he said "dis shit might fly sometimes in pve but it won't fly in pvp ever".

Stockholm · Feb 27, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

This thread and the opinons on the article, defenitly was the last nail in the "NO WAY PvP for me " coffin.

The PvP base in the game wants more people to try Pvp, but at the same time you bash every try from A-Net to lure new people in.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

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Originally Posted by Kakumei

I'm not sure where he said he uses those skills in PvE.

I'm not sure where he advocated the use of those skills in PvE.

He didn't say "i use dis shit yo", he said "dis shit might fly sometimes in pve but it won't fly in pvp ever".

Supposedly it was stated somewhere betwen all those "insults to PvE'ers.

What I find more demeaning to PVE'ers is the amazing number of them who can't interpret an article because they apparently lack reading comprehension skills.

All this reminds me of having to train new hires and have them cop an attitude during training...that they know everything when they clearly do not know everything. I suppose that if education is an insult to the ignorant, we should all feel very abused through out our lives.

The tone of the article is not insulting, it is light hearted and straight forward. The article isn't a master piece or widely scoped work, it is a simple introduction of some basic things for PvE players to consider if they want to broaden their in-game horizons.

Obviously, ANet doesn't need to encourage the "hordes" of PvP'ers to try out PvE. Trying get the mass bulk of players to try PVE is reasonable goal. My feeling is that the next Campaign will lower many barriers in that regard. But, at the end of the day, we still have to endure with each other.

moriz · Feb 27, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

the article's fine. i have no idea what some of you are complaining about. it's a perfect introduction to someone who know nothing about pvp, and i find the tone to be perfectly reasonable.

Rene Saliere · Feb 27, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

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What I find more demeaning to PVE'ers is the amazing number of them who can't interpret an article because they apparently lack reading comprehension skills.

All people who thought the article was bad are PvE'ers? Can we say... "assumption"?

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All this reminds me of having to train new hires and have them cop an attitude during training

"Yeah, heh, *smug complacent smirk* anyone who disagrees with me must be nub like my new 'hires'. Heh. Have you noticed I've been working out?"

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I suppose that if education is an insult to the ignorant, we should all feel very abused through out our lives.

*

I think we said being patronised was insulting. I think the quote you should be considering is: "A wise man knows what he does not know." - Socrates.

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The tone of the article is not insulting, it is light hearted and straight forward.

**

So why are all these people posting about how insulted they are about this article, but not the other PvP Primers?

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The article isn't a master piece or widely scoped work,

***

Agreed! Oh wait, there's more...

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it is a simple introduction of some basic things for PvE players to consider if they want to broaden their in-game horizons.

Read: patronisingly simplistic.

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But, at the end of the day, we still have to endure with each other.

****

* throughout[sp]
** light-hearted[sp], straightforward[sp]
*** masterpiece[sp] widely scoped?
**** endure each other [grammar]

PS: I included corrections because, as you yourself say:

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What I find more demeaning to PVE'ers is the amazing number of them who can't interpret an article because they apparently lack reading comprehension skills.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Gee, Rene Saliere, you kinda full of yourself. I find you "patronizingly simplistic".

You seem to have some comprehension problems yourself, irregardless of my typos and spelling errors. You realize that reading comprehension isn't in the same category as perfect typing or immaculate spelling?

I didn't say "all' people complaining were PvE'ers...you said that...I said "amazing number" which doesn't equal "all".

M'kay, Rene?

You seem to have an issue of trying to force non-absolute statements into becoming absolute statements. Well, that is called being intellectually dishonest and lazy.

So, keep up the ad hominem attacks; it's great way for you to be consistent if you can't manage to be correct.

Insipid little snipes don't make a debate, but since when has that stopped anyone?

GloryFox · Feb 27, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

It’s amazing to me how this article even got to the ANET homepage. It has to be the worst "tripe" ever posted for state of the game and it is complete trashing to veteran PvE players and the larger PvE community as a whole. ANET you seriously need to remove that article.

Yes its true many PvE players use the listed skills such as Mending but there is a reason for using those skills in PvE.... It’s the experience, "their fun" experience. Many PvE'r don't care about mathematical power just the "fun" aspect. This also does not mean they are less able to play PvP on a power level because they use Mending for PvE only. I’ve seen new PvPrs in RA and TA use “Mending” so it’s not an exclusive “PvE noob” skill no matter what PvPr’s tell you. Players can adapt to HA level when its "fun" for them to do so and HA is simply not fun and has become rather complicated even for veteran PvPr's.

At least one thing is nice for PvE introduction for PvP... "AB" through AB an average PvE player can stop by and enjoy a quick fun mass combat PvP game without the elite attitudes of HA or TA. The casual player feels safe without too many judgments on his build. He can use Mending if he wants to and learn from his mistakes or he can test new personal builds, meet people, and enjoy a large quick game without flashing his bambi as a requirement for joining a team.

Now lets go over the skills we “noob” PvE’rs use according to the article and debunk the myths behind the lies.

Mending
Many Players in PvE often desire a need to feel like a regenerating Troll of fortitude. Mending creates this in game feel even if there are better options out there for healing.

Healing Breeze
Where would the PvE Assassin be without this valuable skill especially when used in conjunction with Vigorous Spirit? Many Assassins would still be in Cantha somewhere hoping for mercy from some Monk. Healing Breeze is defiantly not a PvP anti spike skill, but extremely valuable non the less. Healing Breeze also helps deal with many degen skills such as Phantom Pain, Conjure Nightmare, Bleeding + Poison etc.

Remove Hex
An effective simple Hex removal skill that has no attribute requirements that makes it appealing by its low cost.

Rebirth
A safe way of extracting your comrades out of harms way without drawing agro from monster mobs in DoA or anywhere else but a PvP area. Also since it is likely that your comrades are going to die again and again in PvE its valuable to have a safe reusable res skill anyone in the team can use.

Heal Area
This is a quick way of getting the team up and ready to go after a monster mob fight or healing up your minions in masse.

Illusionary weapon
Great for defense against monsters that get to close to you when your going Illusion as a Mesmer. Why do 11-22 to that Stone Summit Dwarf when you can do 42 a swing. To kite is good when you can; but dammit as soon as I move so do my henchmen and I need them to Attack! Attack! Attack!

Animate Flesh Golem
This skill is good for both PvP and PvE as it creates pressure just by existing. You can ignore it in PvE but its still there. Tell me how many you see and AB and explain again why this is a useless skill for PvP? Isn’t AB PvP?

Disclaimer
Yes PvE players use the above skills but that does not mean they are weak or use them in a PvP environment. If all skills were made for PvP then it would ruin the PvE experience; and that experience is what draws more to PvE than the power game of PvP. Stop antagonizing the PvE player by ruining his experience.

wynoski · Feb 27, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

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Originally Posted by GloryFox

Animate Flesh Golem
This skill is good for both PvP and PvE as it creates pressure just by existing. You can ignore it in PvE but its still there. Tell me how many you see and AB and explain again why this is a useless skill for PvP? Isn’t AB PvP?

lol..I am sure some PvP elitist will say that AB is not "true" PvP...adn I am sure i will back up that claim by saying I enjoyed doing this in the lat two weeks and I am hard core PvE

supaet · Feb 27, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

elitist my butt. How does the pvp community turn you off when you play RA and other casual pvp modes? I wish they had this article one year ago. I'm sick of w/mo with mending and healing monk with rebirth in RA. If you don't want to pvp then don't comment on the article. The article is for pver who want to try RA. I hope I see less w/mo mending in RA. I want good casual pvp experience too. And those who talk about elitist in pvp, please stop and play more RA/casual pvp.......

Blame the Monks · Feb 27, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

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Originally Posted by zakaria

Don't tell me that 10-15 years old kid playing PvE for free monthly subscription can ever understand the mechanics of PvP and making and modifying his build. Their ability to understand that become much less when they face the elitism in PvP.

Are you kidding?

The 13 year olds are all running around tombs/ra. Look at how many r9+ 13 year olds there are. By contrast PvEers tend to be older and more carebearish. Part of the reason many pvers dont play pvp is they dont have dozens of hours a week to devote to practice, grind, or team play. Unlike most kids, especially 18-21 year old college kids.

As for understanding the game, lets be real. If you can count down from 3 and run the builds you are told to run, you can play pvp as well as tons of pvpers. It doesn't take much to PvP and even to win at PvP some of the time. PvEers are generally much less gimmick/spike oriented and rarely run the builds others give them. They usually pick their own based on their experiences/preferecnes (for better or for worse).

Winstar · Feb 27, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Dear God...the article was innocent enough and highlighted a lot of common problems you see for people new to PvP. Not everyone out there is dead set against making the jump from PvE to PvP and for those who aren't it might help them avoid some very comman pitfalls in skill decision. If you've tried PvP and you don't like it thats _fine_, just don't get all upset when someone writes and article encouraging people to try while also picking on some commonly seen bad choices. No one has a gun to your head screaming at you to PvP, in fact the vast majority of the updates and game content are directed at you the PvE player. BUT there is a side to the game that still needs enocouragment and proper attention called PvP that is for many people a great part of the game. If you don't like it then just ignore because its not directed at you. Its directed to those people who have heard of this thing called PvP but don't know anything and might be interested in trying it out.

Winstar · Feb 27, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

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Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

As for understanding the game, lets be real. If you can count down from 3 and run the builds you are told to run, you can play pvp as well as tons of pvpers. It doesn't take much to PvP and even to win at PvP some of the time. PvEers are generally much less gimmick/spike oriented and rarely run the builds others give them. They usually pick their own based on their experiences/preferecnes (for better or for worse).

This reeks of falseness.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

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It’s amazing to me how this article even got to the ANET homepage. It has to be the worst "tripe" ever posted for state of the game and it is complete trashing to veteran PvE players and the larger PvE community as a whole. ANET you seriously need to remove that article.

I truly can't fathom how you feel so strongly about this article. At it's worst, it states what is more or less obvious to veteran players. How stating the obvious becomes the "worst tripe" completely escapes me.

I see a huge and ridiculous over reaction from many posters in this thread. If the outrage is so righteous and deserved than why is it so difficult for anyone to clearly explain its cause? It doesn't add up.

I hear people nit-picking details, objecting to matters of opinion or declaring that they are offended; plenty of posturing but no actual rebuttals.

MagicWarrior · Feb 27, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

The only time I play PvP is with people I know. There is just too much shit talk and bad attitudes. In fact, even in Rollerbeetle Racing... there was so much crap-talk going around... and poor sports... that I got tired of it. I've met a lot of really cool players... but the number of ass-hats far outnumber them.

PvE on the other hand is a nice break from real life. I can log into the game and I'm off questing (with or without others) and I feel the community in general is MUCH better in PvE than it is in PvP.

The day PvE goes down is the day I move onto another game. Hopefully that won't be happening anytime soon... cause I love this game!

wynoski · Feb 27, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

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1) Versatility in teams, not in characters
In PvE you can't always count on your allies to cover your back, so it's understandable when you bring some defensive skills even if you are a damage dealer. In PvP, if you can't count on your teammates, then you can't hope to win at all. Make sure your character focuses on what it's best at, rather than spreading too thin.

Uhh....especially with heros...yes you can...most of my PvE skill bars have minimal healing skills...this is beacuse Dunkoro is decked out and Tahlkora is an uber prot monk....if they cannot help me, no one can.

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3) Resurrecting isn't a Monk job
Though most resurrection skills are Monk skills, they're not best used on a Monk. If your Monk begins to cast something that takes six seconds to complete, the enemy team has a huge window to bring all of their damage to bear while one of your Monks is rendered completely useless. Expect a good team to get at least one kill in such a window. It is better to bring several Resurrection Signets on damage dealers and one rechargeable resurrection skill ("hard rez") on a midline character like an Elementalist or Paragon

True...in Urgotz either the rit lord, R/RT or the BIP do the rezzing

As I see it, the skills portion is talking about the extremely coordinated (Top level-Elite) aspects of PvP...TA, HA, GVG...NOT AB, RA or JQ/FA...but his arguments about PVE to PVP can be the same as those made for PVE to Elite areas (DOA, The Deep, Urgotz)

Some general comments:
On...HB and Mending are good for countering weak degen or sacrifices to take presure off the monks...besides how often do you use ALL 8 Skills

Remove Hex: holy veil cost a regen pip..sometimes this in not a trade you can make

Heal area can be useful if you need to heal NPCs if they need to stay alive for a quest...Heal area combined with Enfeeble blood (ah-ha Combine skills for desired effect)

Animate flesh golem vs Jagged bones...I have treid to run jagged bones with bone minions...with the 20 sec recharge jagged bones, it is tough to keep this on all the minions...especially since A level 13 Bone Minion has 340 health and 39 armor...they DO NOT last long in PVE...sometimes not long enough to cast both copies...Especially if there is holy damage. I doubt that in PVP they would last long either...especially against AOE of metoer shower or SF. Now the FLesh golem does about 110 damage per hit to the back line...that can really change things...it cannot tank, but it can distract...refocus attention and irritiate

Sir Skullcrasher · Feb 27, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I don't know. The game is balanced between PvP and PvE. Any changes you done to one side will likely affect the other.

floppinghog · Feb 27, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

makes me wonder if Adam over there ever ran into a friend of mine that used to play once in while (much less now if at all).

When he played monk/ranger, he fell in love with mending and blessed signet, can you guess what he did ??

had a pet for damage, maintained mending on everyone, and used a few smiting skills. and he got as far as the jungle, only to be ran to droks for armor.

lol that basically sums it up there... its was very hard to explain to him that healing multiple digits is better than just 3 regen on everyone who would die anyway just slower. all they needed was a cheap hex for degen and they would lose their healing for what its worth.

wynoski · Feb 27, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

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Originally Posted by supaet

elitist my butt. How does the pvp community turn you off when you play RA and other casual pvp modes? I wish they had this article one year ago. I'm sick of w/mo with mending and healing monk with rebirth in RA. If you don't want to pvp then don't comment on the article. The article is for pver who want to try RA. I hope I see less w/mo mending in RA. I want good casual pvp experience too. And those who talk about elitist in pvp, please stop and play more RA/casual pvp.......

Good to hear...I am a casual PVP player...glad to know I would be welcome in RA.